OK Then, How About TWAT - The War About Terms?

Comments

Say what I will about Republicans, they understand that it's better for three thousand of our guys die over a period of years while at the same time killing many more thousands of their guys than it is for three thousand of our guys to die en masse at the office while only a super-baker's dozen of theirs perish at the same time.

Hmmm.....gee, and here I was thinking that it was AL Qaeda that slaughtered three thousand people en masse in our country. I didn't realize it was really Iraq that did it...

You look a little too old to be that stupid.

Just quoting you - you are the one who posted that little bit of insight into the Iraq War. You are the one who connected the two, not me....

I'm big enough to admit I was wrong in my first observation, you aren't too old to be that stupid. So OK, you look a little too old to be that illogical.

Wow, do you have to be rude? Sorry I didn't call you any names.

Did you or did you not connect Iraq and the 911 attacks?

To quote you:

Say what I will about Republicans, they understand that it's better for three thousand of our guys die over a period of years while at the same time killing many more thousands of their guys than it is for three thousand of our guys to die en masse at the office while only a super-baker's dozen of theirs perish at the same time.

Most people would read that as a connection of the war that we lost 3000+ men (the Iraq War) and the only large scale terrorist event on our soil that killed three thousand people in office buildings (911).

I know that Lord Cheney and Herr Bush do it the same way but I expet more from the thinking masses.

In answer to your specific questions,

1) yes

B) no.

But the problem is the same with all of your lot, you're so wrong and so misguided that there's no point in trying to answer anything. Besides, if you haven't figured things out all on your own by now, consider yourself fortunate that all I can be is rude.

[this is good]
America is under attack from Islamic Terrorists, and from within from Liberals.
The Liberals do not want us to fight against the Islamic Terrorists no matter what and I do not understand why. If the Libs think they will be spared by the terrorists because they refused to fight against them, they are so, so wrong. In fact, they will be the first to be punished, the gays, the porn industry and Hollywood. The conservatives are fighting to save their lives and they are using every tactic known to man to stop us. If they would ever get off their illegal drugs, prescription drugs, and alcohol, maybe they could see more clearly. I can't believe they are that stupid, but if they are, then they deserve what they get.
Katie, you appear to be the one adding a connection between 9/11 and Iraq to this post.

His point about Republicans: Lose American lives at home by a terrorist attack, or lose the same number of American lives elsewhere, while killing many more terrorists in the process.
BTW, Ted, great post. Entertaining, and true. It's impossible to argue with someone who is in some kind of alternate reality.

I have a few liberal friends. They are good people. They mean well. They do think what they have in their mind is real, and right, and is the solution to our country and the world's problems.

I'm not great at communicating my thoughts about how wacked out I think they are. (Sidenote: I got into college because I aced the Math part of the SAT, while doing poorly on the English part! Limited vocabulary is what I'm saying here...)

I lost my point... oh yeah...

It seems like each and every time I try to dig into a liberal's argument, I find that they have simply made something up. And if I try to bring up some piece of truth, or point out that they have nothing in the way of facts to backup what they think to be true, then they just shut down.

My biggest example: BUSH LIED!

No one to this day has been able to show me proof that Bush said something he knew to be true. Yet, the bumper stickers are everywhere in this town (Portland). No one died when Clinton lied!

A poor decision is not the same as a lie. That seems so simple to me, but impossible for my liberal friends to understand.

I gotta tell ya, you two guys just made my night. I hate dealing with nonsense, and I'd just finished telling my wife that I had to return to see what Katie might be saying next, and I feel almost a sort of dread about having to even see it.

And this time, I come upon some really great comments that were not only terrific in themselves, but they also gave meaning to Katie's comments as well.

Of course, they also made it possible, for better or worse, for me to continue to justify doing what I'm doing exactly the way I'm doing it, so that blood's on your hands.

But now let me get to your comments, ladies first.

Maddy, it's so clear that liberals are clueless about their own vulnerabilities with respect to militant Islamists, and that they're much more concerned about getting Karl Rove.

In reality, almost everything liberals hold sacred is either irrelevant or detrimental to a free and strong America.

And Sho, old boy, did you hit a familiar chord. I used to challenge anyone and everyone to prove even on lie Bush was alleged to have spoken. There's a forum called The Negative Zone which consists of some intelligent liberals (which means the noun cancels the adjective), and not only were their best efforts to show me that Bush lied not only utterly fruitless, I kept pointing out to them that their "evidence" would never stand up in court.

And the reason I told them that was because one of their number was a real and practicing prosecutor who, himself, was arguing that "Bush lied" was a given.

I was amused that he had nothing to say when I told him his evidence would be thrown out by a judge, but I was even more amused that his "given" is the same argument his kind make in arguing that Bush lied about WMD.

So I was still further amused today to read Katie's profile in which she fancies herself becoming a lawyer, and yet she couldn't see what you pointed out - that she was the one who was linking Iraq to 9/11.

So really, Katie lied when she said I did it.

Oh, and you so underestimate yourself regarding your communication abilities.

Thanks to both you and Maddy for extending my sanity a few more moments.

Just a note. They are not jihadists. They are terrorists

Even without al-Qaeda, there will always be someone out with a grudge on America. Not because we hate your liberties, or we're envious of the freedoms you have in your country.

It's your sucky foreign policy, and the aspects under what Scio calls your "national interests".

And yeah, it sucks that Baghdad is getting so violent.

You say terrorists, I say Jihadists, let's call the whole thing off.

And does our foreign policy suck, or is it just that primitives (nothing personal) would rather cling to superstitions and backward ways?

Ummm Madmouser???

Yeah...its only the evil liberals that do drugs Madmouser - not your high spokes people like dear old bloated Rush. Its only the evil liberals that drive around drunk and high on blow trying to murder a family - not beloved Bush. Its the evil liberals that participate in porn - not the Republican porn stars Mary Carey or Mimi Miyagi (both Republicans who ran for office).

Just a point. None of my liberal friends do prescription drugs, alcohol, or illegal drugs- but my Republican friends do!

Well its good to see the old fear mongering tactics are still alive and well in the last few remaining members of the Republican party that support Bush. Sorry but I didn't lie. I simply read what you wrote. You made the connection - not me. Thats ok though. I forgive you for falling into the Rove trap.

I never said that fighting the terrorists was wrong. I think it needs to be done. America shouldn't tolerate terrorists - that includes the irish terrorist that George W Bush hosted at his home on St Patrick's Day (Sinn Fein is nothing more than the political arm of the IRA).

You said you would rather see them fight on their own soil rather than ours. What right do we have to turn a nation that had NOTHING to do with 9/11 into bait? What right do we have to sacrifice the lives of innocent Iraqis as bait?

BTW...before I get accused of being a cut and runner - I think we should stay in IRaq. We destroyed the only stable government they had (albeit it harsh) - so we are responsible for fixing it. Nation building takes about a decade and thats how long we will be there - at a minimum. The building of an artificial nation that combines three distinct cututral and religious groups that hate each other will take even longer.

I should say this as well, do respect Republicans like you - at least you are consistent. You aren't one of the whiney ones who voted for GWB both times but now are complaining about the loss of life in IRaq. The people who voted for the man but now want the troops out make me sick...

Newsflash for you Katie... Saddam broke 18 U.N. resolutions, shot at our planes for 10 years, invaded Iran, invaded Kuwait, used chemical weapons on his own people, had rape and torture rooms, mass graves, hundreds of thousands of people killed... What right do we have going in there? Are you f#$%ing serious? You're hung up on everything having to be directly connected to 9/11. The point is, we don't want anything like 9/11 happening again, so we need to go after anyone and everyone who looks like a threat. Your point seems to be that we can't go take someone like Saddam out, unless we wait until after he hits us at home.

BTW, it's nice to see someone like you understands this is not all going to be cleared up by 2008. It's definitely a longer team effort, which I hope will change the world for the better.

"None of my liberal friends do...but my Republican friends do!"

And you want to be a lawyer?

Katie, you've gone from stupid to incoherent. When liberals have nothing but their feelings, the rants rule!

YEp. I never said he was a good guy. Saddam was a horrid leader. However, there was a reason that we didn't go in there before - the dedication of ground troops and diplomatic assets for more than a decade. Also the probable destabilization of a secular nation (and the region) brought on by extremist religious factions warring in the area.

I know that they broke/ignored UN sanctions. Most times they were bombed for doing it. Yes, they kicked out the weapons inspectors - but they had let them back in before Bush attacked.

Hell, I even agree that eventually - Saddam needed to be removed.

My biggest issue is that our interference detabilized the region even more than it already was. We also should have gone in at a different time because our attention should have been on Al Qaeda, Iran, and other nations that are more of an imminent threat. Maybe we could have even stepped in to the issues in Darfur.

Just our of curiosity - does anybody know how many UN resolutions the Iraelis have ignored when it comes to Palestine?

to answer your question kate, the number of resolutions passed, and the number of condemnations is high, and varies from source to source. here is a snippet from wiki:
From 1967 to 1988 the UN Security Council passed 88 resolutions directly against Israel and during that span, Israel was condemned 43 times. During this time, in the UN General Assembly, 429 resolutions against Israel were passed, and Israel was condemned 321 times.[3][4]
in response to the assertion that despite Iraq not being in anyway linked to 9/11 or Al-Qaeda at that time (don't forget there was a great deal of animosity between saddam and bin laden) you see a need to go in there to prevent further 9/11's - it seems the opposite has been achieved. Iraq is a magnet now for extremists and the war in Iraq is serving as chief recruiting agent for fundamentalist groups. another issue is why Saddam? why not kim jong? why not saudi-arabia - a non-democractic country that has human rights restrictions and is where most of the high-level terrorists have come from, including bin-laden.

and what about the reasoin for going to Iraq? international law is there for a reason. the goalposts have been moved by the coalition so many times, it allows other countries to feel free to make a mockery of international law and opinion. one minute it is 9/11 (at least in the US, not UK), then it is about WMD, then regime change....which one is it? it does matter, because what you do is a sign for others to act in the same way. just as renewing nuclear weapons and designing new ones sends out a message to others not to bother with non-proliferation
..isn't that a Harry Connick Jr. song...? lol!

Think it depends on that one. I don't see any country having "superstitions" when it comes to foreign policy. However, I would think pride, vanity and arrogance are the major reasons countries cannot connect with one another.

Plus, there's always that matter of national interest. In the case of America, you guys are somewhat aggressive in terms of going out and getting what you want. Such as the case with oil deals and war economics, whereas other nations prefer to use words and sanctions and resolutions to do their dirty work.

OK, the magic word has been written, so let me say to you two morons that I won't tolerate any further mention of Israel in a negative light here unless it's about their failure to annihilate Hezbollah last year. The Palestinians long ago forfeited their right to exist, and so now they do so solely at Israel's mercy, of which I wish they has less. There's a genocide I could get behind.

So why don't you two find a nice bulldozer to taunt.

Secondly, another buzzword has been tossed in, Darfur, and as Ann Coulter said yesterday, liberals care about that which is of absolutely no interest to us, but they, according to Miss Kitty, want to put off Iraq for another time. And so with that, Kat, you've now gone from incoherence to lunacy.

"Saddam's barbaric rape rooms, chemical attacks and torture – those, liberals could live with. But now they want us to send troops to Darfur, a country from which no one anticipates terrorism anytime in the next millennium. If you're looking for a good definition of "no imminent threat," Darfur is it." - Ann Coulter

Further according to Ann, and any rational person would agree, "These people can't even wrap up genocide. We've been hearing about this slaughter in Darfur forever – and they still haven't finished. The aggressors are moving like termites across that country. It's like genocide by committee. Who's running this holocaust in Darfur, FEMA?"

wait,wait,wait.....

you listen to Ann Coulter?

The lady who wanted the entire Islamic population to be forcefully converted to Christianity?
The very one. Is she hilarious or what?!?
Personally I think she's a hatemongering bitch, but every now and then she does bring up a few interesting things.
actually, we should be going into darfur. we are obliged too, but then again some of us here seem to not want to act by the same laws we get oh so outraged by other countries breaking.

and then you expect iran to follow international law when the US goes around ignoring it in so many cases?

also, the comment about backing a genocide in Palestine - TedWest - I'm thinking about whether I want to report that to Vox.
in fact think how an Jew might react to your blithe comments about genocide. I suspect they might be digusted you would wish such a thing with its place in their history, and they'd be right.
also, as a matter of education - genocide is a legal term, and as such has specific conditions to be met. and so if you look it up at the UN, where Lemkin devised the term, you'll see in fact no killings are required for the genocide conevtion to be incurred, just proof of a systematic attempt to marginalise a race, reiligion, ethnic group. the point was that if you wait until something as terrible as the Holocaust happened again it's too late, never again we said.

so Darfur should be acted upon, we've already failed Rwanda (Albirght termed it 'acts of genocide but not genocide' - explain to me what that means?).

and who said anything about 'liberals' (apparently they are just one big set of people who all have the same thoughts, how convenient) condoning Saddam? I certainly never did. I am upset still that we in the west supplied him with the means to torture his people and gas the kurds (although i think it was us british who first gassed them many years ago). I am upset about how the country was run, and about how the sanctions hurt no one but the young and the poor.

Sure there are some liberals who have darling leaders or countries, just as the right do. I think there is no room for anyone or any government to be beyond criticism from the word go which is why i respect people like human rights watch and amnesty and reporters without borders who tell you about the rights and wrongs of cuba, venezueala, US,UK, palestine and Israel.

TedWest - you say you will not tolerate anymore comments showing Israel in a bad light - how and why? is this not a politics discussion group? a democratic forum? or just a place where you hoped people would back up your opinions and confirm your extremely polarised views where everything is good or evil, for us/ against us, liberal/republican, blakc/white?

I don't think either palestine or israel is beyond criticism, and to ignore engenders the existing problems.

Why would I 'support' one over the other? I am not in anyway attached to any country or religion. I am an atheist and someone who is non-patriotic. my only attachment is towards my local community wherever that may be. and my ideas, morals, ethics etc which i derive from logic and empirical observation of the world around.

I want peace in the middle east, and i want respect for all lives there.
I don't want any country to be stopping anohter from achieveing this, and almost all countries there have a say in another.

I have to accept that some countries may democractically elect a non-democratic government, even if it is not to my liking. We have to be tolerant, but keep questioning.

In my own opinion, i wish people didn't attach so much importance to their religion and ethnicity, and treated everyone else like a similar human being. it seems dafte we are using sketchy details and books to distance ourselves from our neighbours, when they are really just the same flesh and blood.

I can imagine if i was more right-wing and extremist (and i am not and never will be) i'd probably try to suggest that religion is a non-logical process that has no place in government, schools, public places, wars, business, ethics, law and so on.

this is a long post, i know, but what i am trying to say is, you are the one polarising things here, not the 'liberals'.

I am not, and never have been anti-america, just as i am not and never have been pro-cuba or anti-cuba. i just have different things i like and dislike about them and normally separate actions of the state from those of the people.

same too for israel, i see the pressure the government is under there in a hostile middle-east, and perhaps how that could lead to some paranoia or knee-jerk reactions, just as I think the wall going up is wrong, and the policies on economically crippling palestine is wrong and the targeting of civillians and media. i see there are many in israel who want peace, many who just wish to go about their lives. many who welcome a settlement.

and of course palestine - a terrible view on martyrdom, especially of the young, which is a horrible waste of life on both sides. but equally I see, how under their religion, and the conditions of living htere and the lack of hope and freedom, hwo they become desperate. the factions in palestine hijack the political processes, and some are just blinded by their determination no to see as Israel as a state. some are wonderful compassionate people who with like minded israelis to end this tragedy and stop the needless deaths of so many.

it's easier to hope everything is black and white....it rarely is the case though

I find it interesting that you clearly don't like Ann, yet you're still able to admit you find some things she says to be thought-provoking. Our liberal friends above can't do that.

And do you feel the same about me as you do about Ann? Because I share almost all of Ann's views except those where she's entirely too restrained.

See, Ms. Coulter is in a niche unto herself. Where most people who do what she does are passive-aggressive, she lays it all out. She doesn't hate, people hate her.

And that's exacerbated by the fact that she possesses so much more intelligence and perceptivity than her detractors that she often talks on a level they can't even grasp.

What do I mean? Well, take what happened above, and I'm no Ann when it comes to words. Katie swears I linked Iraq and 9/11, and nothing I could say would convince her otherwise. I knew that immediately, and so it was time for insults. If anything, Ann has more patience than I do.

Now you know I respect for you (because look what I do when I don't respect people), and and the Earth was much wormer the last time I spoke to Ann, but I feel certain that she'd also hold you in infinitely higher regard than she does liberals.

And like Ann, I really don't really want to kill anyone. Nor do I wish them harm, nor do I demand they change their beliefs or their customs (mostly anyway).

Unfortunately, they (and by "they" I mean liberals, militant Islamists and various and sundry other smaller but no less rotten groups) are not content to grant me-her-us the same courtesies.

That's when I believe in getting them before they get me. The Jews used to say, An eye for an eye." That means waiting until I lose an eye.

I don't think so. I believe in preemption and then if that fails, two eyes for an eye until I get them to the point where they will never again be able to get me..

Thus my advocacy of applying the same policy we used rather successfully against the Indians - when civilized societies are threatened by uncivil people, groups and societies, reduce their numbers to a few dozen, being as savage as necessary, and award the survivors an abandoned gas station and a gaming license.

Afterward, we return to civility, and though our foes may still yearn to be uncivil, they'll be powerless. Thus customs and beliefs survive, as does ethnicity, and everyone can settle down to making plans for a better future.

Unlike the liberals idiots who've shown up here, I'm sure you realize that, for example, if the Palestinians stopped killing, the killing would stop.

In the meantime, Israel's fate-tempting mistake is accommodating it. Ours is accommodating liberals.

You know, In the thirteen years I've been doing this, I've encountered a lot of morons, but none any bigger than you, so take a bow.
good to see you replied with a clear argument there. i know the eye for an eye saying, i have a good film by an israeli director "i avenge but one of my two eyes", i suggest you watch it.

in it he does show how part of the jewish past is built on samson taking his own life to take many others who he percieves as a threat to his people (correct me if i am wrong, my memory on such things is not so great). which is no different to anyone else taking their life for what they believe in.

I too wish the palestinians would stop killing. and wish reprisal attacks from Israel did not centre of punishing those who are not responsible and killing women and children as indiscrimantely as the suicide bombers.

tell me, is there anything 'moronic' in that? and please explain your definition of moronic? At least i am trying to think my way through forming opinions and arguing using facts and observations, rather than deriving them from prejudice, religion and being told by people who we like because they say what we think, which until you can tell me otherwise i have no choice to believe.

but what you fail to grasp is that many palestians who are moderate cannot exercise a voice under the conditions we have created there. furthermore, a lot of the groundswell would be taken away by agreeing to return to pre-1967 borders. ~Israel took those lands against international law - how would you like if mexico had done that to texas? is it any different? and if so, why?

if israel did rescind those lands on the condition of peace, i think you'd find more moderate palestians elevated into power because people would have hope, and a chance for peace.

it would also take away any further excuses for the fundamentalist elements. if you just hem in people, they will get angrier. you need to take away the anger first to get peace.


in your other comment, you talk about civility and the 'same policy we used rather succesfully aginst the Indians'. how do those two sit together?

and who is we? germans, scandinavians, english, spanish and irish? yes, western european immigrants from liberal states originally who then became quite lawless.

and what was good about the process, displacing people from their land, and why were they uncivlised?

if you want to get techinical about it, i'd hardly call large parts of the US civilised. you have one of the greatest rich-poor gaps in the world, the highest prison population, problems with porn, drugs, gambling, guns, pollution. you have corruption in your administration and politics full of slander and sleaze. sound civilised? of course, there are many parts and people in america civilised, but you seewhat happens if you always blanket approach things.i myself would not call america an uncivlised place, just that it has facets which are.

i'm intrigued what have you spent the last thirteen years doing, other than resorting to name-calling as soon as someone disagrees with you?



"tell me, is there anything 'moronic' in that?"

Oh no, you've gone way beyond moronic..

[this is good]

Katie,

Sounds like you need to get some new friends.

I'm conservative but always vote for the best candidate. My involvement with politics started when I decided to work for Bobby Kennedy in 1968 so that should tell you how long I have been voting.

A couple weeks ago I saw Obama speak to 4,000 poeple on the campus of Santa Barbara City College. His speech reminded me of Bobby, back in the 60's. He talked about hope and change and he is one of the few candidates that has not always pointed the finger at the other party. The system is broken and more than anything I think the country needs some one that can bring people